tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6257578024925559189.post5698671287211638790..comments2023-08-03T03:59:01.255-04:00Comments on Democratic Voting Canada: Fascist approach to voting reform self-defeatingRon Wallerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08120060083437508997noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6257578024925559189.post-81584919202259757332014-04-13T20:14:26.619-04:002014-04-13T20:14:26.619-04:00PR is PR. Both Mixed-Member Proportional and Singl...PR is PR. Both Mixed-Member Proportional and Single Transferable Vote (the two modern forms) are excellent at regional representation. <br /><br />Fair Vote favors MMP. The Electoral Reform Society in the UK favors STV. The BC citizens' assembly picked STV. The citizens' assemblies in ON and PEI chose MMP.<br /><br />I believe that Canadians should choose, not some unelected body that has no mandate from voters.<br /><br />Fair Vote's over-the-top rhetoric against Ranked Ballot Voting is really what's detrimental to the cause of voting reform. Again it's up to Canadians to choose what kind of electoral reform we should implement - PR or RBV - not them.<br /><br />Fair Vote believes they can wage a war against RBV and weasel in PR. But as I point out in this blog, that approach is actually cementing FPTP as the democratic choice of Canadians because of vote splitting. If Fair Vote kills a fifth (federal) referendum, every form of PR is toast.Ron Wallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08120060083437508997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6257578024925559189.post-90222602258130105502014-04-13T12:16:43.551-04:002014-04-13T12:16:43.551-04:00“To me, the kind of PR system we choose is less im...“To me, the kind of PR system we choose is less important. ...................<br /> FPTP, PR and RBV. I've broken down PR down to its main three forms: party-list, MMP and STV.” <br /><br />Whilst I agree that most readers do need it all simplified for them I cannot agree that the type of PR does not matter. There is a vast difference between the systems and the effect upon who will represent you locally, how large the riding is and how this translates into seats. Unfortunately it is the details of such voting systems (and even the details within the various types) that need to be spelled out before a meaningful choice can be made. Even those of us pushing for change have difficulty in agreeing upon the best system....... but having the debate is a good thing!<br /><br />PS. I agree with the first commenter that over the top rhetoric is not helpfull!Ruralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11814103548500393628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6257578024925559189.post-78848356596798700802014-04-11T17:38:58.545-04:002014-04-11T17:38:58.545-04:00I think the main message about PR is that it fixes...I think the main message about PR is that it fixes our broken voting system by ensuring parties get the same percent seats they got in votes. To me, the kind of PR system we choose is less important. <br /><br />I agree we need to do more to explain to Canadians what Mixed Member Proportional and Single Transferable vote are (the most-widely-used modern variations of PR.) God knows the corporate-owned media isn't going to do it.<br /> <br />But we certainly don't want to confuse the people by throwing 20 different combinations of voting systems at them. <br /><br />With my blog, I try to be as clear and concise as possible. I've broken voting systems down to their three main forms: FPTP, PR and RBV. I've broken down PR down to its main three forms: party-list, MMP and STV. That pretty much tames the electoral reform zoo.<br /><br />I welcome you to write more about voting reform on your blog. I think this is the most important issue of all because it stops 40% dictatorships which are destroying the country. <br /><br />If Canada was a real democracy, we would have better: social programs, infrastructure spending and environmental regulations. The real will of the people would be carried out.<br /><br />If we, in the social media, work hard, we can make this happen in 2015. If we don't, we are condemning future generations to a neo-con version of Canada.Ron Wallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08120060083437508997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6257578024925559189.post-49766328531369641452014-04-11T15:47:56.046-04:002014-04-11T15:47:56.046-04:00My Wikipedia defines PR as "a concept in voti...My Wikipedia defines PR as "a concept in voting systems" and consistently, and correctly, refers to proportional systems (plural). Maybe this is hair-splitting, Ron, but I believe that if we are to convince people of the need for PR, we need to be clear and precise about what we are proposing.Bill Longstaffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15883751372039947365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6257578024925559189.post-88329891097768442442014-04-11T15:10:01.742-04:002014-04-11T15:10:01.742-04:00I didn't say FVC members were fascists. I said...I didn't say FVC members were fascists. I said they were taking the fascist approach to voting reform. My hope is that they will come to their senses and stop their war against Ranked Ballot Voting and represent Canadians on voting reform.<br /><br />According to Wikipedia, PR is a voting system. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your hair-splitting on the issue.<br /><br />According to Wikipedia, PR is used by 87 countries. There are three variations of PR: party-list, Mixed-Member Proportional and Single Transferable Vote.<br /><br />On this blog I promote both PR and RBV. I favor PR but I respect Canadians who believe RBV is best.<br /><br />We should let Canadians choose by putting FPP, PR and RBV on a referendum ballot with a runoff vote. That way one system is chosen by a majority (real democracy.)<br /><br />The PR options can also be put on the ballot: party-list, MMP and STV. That way one system will be chosen by a majority and used if PR wins.<br /><br />If a citizens' assembly makes the choices for us (with no mandate from voters,) FPP will win the referendum because of invisible-option vote splitting. That's what happened in 4 provincial PR referendums. (Trying the same thing over and over again...)Ron Wallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08120060083437508997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6257578024925559189.post-72394205032580721632014-04-11T14:45:58.302-04:002014-04-11T14:45:58.302-04:00Ron, it will be difficult for electoral reformers ...Ron, it will be difficult for electoral reformers to "co-operate for the greater good" if we are calling each other fascists.<br /><br />I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should entertain all views on electoral reform. I must point out, however. that PR is not an electoral system and it is confusing to refer to it as such. It is a goal that can by achieved by a wide variety of systems.Bill Longstaffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15883751372039947365noreply@blogger.com